Episode 132 - What Type of Perfectionist Are You? - Part 1
Perfectionists are ambitious people who expect a lot out of life. This can be constructive as much as destructive. In this episode, I explore the 5 types of perfectionists described by Katherine Morgan Schafler in her book The Perfectionist’s Guide to Losing Control to help you gain awareness of the specific ways you might be holding yourself back.
Topics
Understanding Your Perfectionist Persona: Unraveling the Five Types.
To celebrate perfectionism as a strength and learn to manage it.
The difference between Classic perfectionists and Intense perfectionists.
How different types of perfectionists need each other.
Links
👉 If you are ready to have your most daring end-of-year so far, click here to join my intensive 1:1 Coaching program THE AUDACITY.
Resources
Book:
The Perfectionist’s Guide to Losing Control by Katherine Morgan Schafler
Transcript
[AUTO-GENERATED]
Marie-Pier Tremblay [00:00:00]:
Welcome to the self-growth nerds podcast. I'm your host, Marie, a courage coach, creative soul, and adventure seeker since through hiking the Pacific Crest Trail in 2019, I'm on a mission to help you embrace your most confident self so you can achieve your dreams, too. If you're eager for deep conversations, big questions, and meaningful connections, join me on the quest to discovering how we can create a more magical and memorable life. Hello, Nerds. How are you? I'm really good today. It's the first solo episode in a little while, so it's just you and I. We're back in our little cozy setup, and I want to discuss a topic that's dear to my heart, which is perfectionism.
Marie-Pier Tremblay [00:01:01]:
I came across a book called The Perfectionist's Guide to Losing Control, and it spoke to my soul. I picked it up when I was in the bookstore, and I was like, it's just going to be one of those books know doesn't teach me anything new, but I was surprised in the first few pages. The author, by the way, is Catherine Morgan Schaffler. And in the first few pages, she says that she actually loves perfectionists and that the goal is not to stop being one, but it's to celebrate this as a strength and also learn to manage it so it doesn't get in the way of having an extraordinary life. Because that's the thing about perfectionist. People, they are ambitious and they want more out of life, and there's nothing wrong with that. And that's one of the messages that she shares in the introduction, is we shouldn't shame perfectionists for being how they are because they can change the world. The only thing is that perfectionism can be constructive, but it also can be destructive depending on how you use it, how self aware you are.
Marie-Pier Tremblay [00:02:30]:
So that's why I think she wrote the book from that angle where we want to just hone that part of us in a way that allows us to be true to ourselves and to keep moving forward in powerful ways. So I'm going to create two episodes. The first one is going to be about the five types of perfectionists that she describes in the book. And then in the second episode, I'm going to share my main takeaways from the book. Okay, I binge read that book. It was really good. Like, half of it is highlighted. So I'm going to take the best I'm going to squeeze the best juice out of that lemon and give it to you straight.
Marie-Pier Tremblay [00:03:23]:
And that's something I want to do more because I read so many books, and it's easy to just read, read and forget about what you read. So this is going to help me integrate what I've learned, but also it's going to help you. You don't have to spend hours reading. You can just listen to these two episodes, and you're going to get a lot out of them if you're a perfectionist or if you know one. Okay, so I'm going to name the five types, and then I'm going to go into more details for each. Bear in mind that you're not only one of them. You might be a little bit of all of them or a little bit of a few. Okay, so there's the classic perfectionist.
Marie-Pier Tremblay [00:04:10]:
There's the Parisian perfectionist. There's the procrastinator perfectionist, the messy perfectionist, and lastly, the intense perfectionist. So let's dive in. People who are classic perfectionists are clean, crisp, reliable. They look from the outside like they have it all figured out. There's no crumbs in the bottom of their handbag or on their counter. They like to be in control and sometimes struggle to be flexible with the way other people do things. They can seem a bit cold at first and intimidating.
Marie-Pier Tremblay [00:04:51]:
They're not cold at all. But that's what they might seem like from the outside, because they appear to have all their shit together. They have very high standards. They're really hard workers, and they can often feel underappreciated for all the things that they do by the people around them. They value structure and predictability, which means that they're not fans of spontaneous plans. I have a friend who I bet is a classic perfectionist, and she doesn't like surprises. She prefers when everything is planned well in advance. That structure and that predictability is what allows her to let go and have fun.
Marie-Pier Tremblay [00:05:38]:
But if you bring her, like, a last minute idea for the weekend, it's not her cup of tea. Let's say it this way. Okay, so these are classic perfectionists. Now, if you're a Parisian perfectionist, and I have more to say on that because I definitely relate to this type, your perfectionism is around interactions with other human beings. You desire ideal connections. You want to feel liked by everyone that you come in contact with. And it's not just about being liked. It's actually you want every connection to be deep and meaningful.
Marie-Pier Tremblay [00:06:15]:
Like, for example, you go to an evening, like a party maybe. And then when you get back home afterwards, you think about all the conversations you've had and wonder how you could have shown up better, or how you think, oh, have I made people feel good? Have I made people feel special? Have I been attentive enough? Have I been thoughtful enough? Have I asked enough questions? Because the perception that other people have of you is very important. You want to be liked. You want people to feel good around you, and you have really high expectations when it comes to that. And the reason the author calls this type of perfectionist Parisian is in reference to French women who look super elegant, but they want to make it appear like it's very little effort, like it's natural. So Parisian perfectionists care a lot, but they don't want it to show that they care. So they want to make people laugh at the party, but at the same time, they don't want to take too much space. They want to be able to talk with everyone and make it all appear like that's just how they are.
Marie-Pier Tremblay [00:07:31]:
And they seem super confident, but deep down they're actually calculating their presence, hoping that everyone has positive thoughts about them. I definitely relate to this type of perfectionism. I'm getting better with time. I'm gaining self awareness and I'm working on it. But yeah, next up we have procrastinator perfectionists. These people have a hard time starting a process because it goes against the perfect idea that they have in their mind. So they have a perfect idea of how something should go or what something should look like. And as soon as you start, it's not up to their standards, the standards in their imagination.
Marie-Pier Tremblay [00:08:21]:
Let's say you've been imagining this amazing novel and you write the first page, you think it sounds really bad, then you're going to get stuck because there's a massive gap between where you want it to be and where it actually is. So procrastinator perfectionists spend a lot of time feeling frustrated because they're not doing what they most want to do. And what's worse is that they see other people who they believe are not as smart or as talented as they are move past them either in their career or their personal life. And it really hurts them because they think, I know I could do so much better than that if only I actually started doing. And it's probably true. It's just that they're stuck in a form of paralysis, kind of like I'm sure you've seen people who have studied for years, maybe they have multiple degrees, PhDs, and they're jealous of people who are successful, who haven't studied at all or haven't even been to college. And they think, I'm so much more knowledgeable, and yet here I am, stuck in my impostor syndrome. Hesitating constantly where this person just goes for it.
Marie-Pier Tremblay [00:09:45]:
They think they need even more knowledge or more motivation, more energy, more time, more discipline. But that's not the case. None of it is the case. And some of them think they're lazy. They're not lazy. Procrastinator perfectionists, you're not lazy. But you might have developed a false identity believing that you are, believing that you're not a motivated person, that you're not disciplined, that you're lazy because you've been telling yourself that over and over again. What procrastinator perfectionists lack is actually acceptance.
Marie-Pier Tremblay [00:10:21]:
Acceptance that now is the only time to get started and that there will be loss. They have to make peace with the loss that will inevitably come when what you create is not as perfect as the image in your mind. So that's the work that procrastinator perfectionists have to do is to stop wasting energy judging other people or critiquing them or judging themselves, or critiquing themselves and instead seek support and practice making peace with the loss. Like I mentioned earlier, there are two thoughts that Catherine in the book offered to help procrastinator perfectionists. And it's not mere talent that rises to the top. It's persistence. That's one of them. I love it.
Marie-Pier Tremblay [00:11:14]:
It's persistence. And like I often say, you got to be willing to start shitty. Got to make peace with starting shitty, with being a beginner, being a clumsy beginner. That's what's going to change your life. And the other thought that's offered in the book is, while change does always involve loss, not changing involves a much deeper loss. So think about that. I think I used to be a procrastinator perfectionist, but this really started shifting when I read a quote somewhere that said, hell is meeting the person that you could have been. And I just asked myself, like, what's going to happen if I keep doing what I've been doing? Well, I realize I'm going to have so many regrets as I get old.
Marie-Pier Tremblay [00:12:06]:
So that's it for procrastinator perfectionists. Now let's move on to the fourth one, which is my favorite, which is the one I relate to the most. Messy perfectionists. That's like number one for me. Messy perfectionists are the opposite in a way, to procrastinator perfectionists because they love starting new things. They love starting a bunch of new projects. They're multi passionate. And the thing is that when they get bored, when the process is no longer exciting and energizing, they struggle to maintain momentum.
Marie-Pier Tremblay [00:12:44]:
They love to tell everyone about the new thing that they're doing. They get really eager, eager beavers. They tend to disregard real world constraints like time, money, physical energy, the fact that they need to eat in order to pursue their dreams. These are the people that need to remind themselves to go pee because they're too into what they're doing. They probably have had lots of different careers and adventures. In the book, she writes that it's like they've signed themselves up for Montessori School for Adults. And that made me chuckle. For those of you who don't know, montessori is like an alternative school where kids learn through projects.
Marie-Pier Tremblay [00:13:34]:
So messy perfectionists have start a bunch of projects at the same time and they are convinced that it's going to be okay. They're just going to make it work. They pack their schedule, they're going to work 10 hours a day. And they have lots of people that they love, lots of friends, people that they're dating. And so they're going to go out every night and all is good because they're in love and feeling purposeful and life is amazing. And obviously they end up hitting the wall of reality and either losing interest or getting exhausted. Hitting that wall can be quite hard for messy perfectionists. It can lead to depression sometimes.
Marie-Pier Tremblay [00:14:16]:
So that's why I make sure I've been careful in the last few years to make sure that my fuel, my daily fuel is not enthusiasm and excitement. It's okay to have enthusiasm and excitement, but it's not a sustainable fuel. I talk about that in the episode about fear of missing out. Okay? When you're multi passionate, you don't want to miss out on anything. You want to experience it all. And that's beautiful. But at the same time we have to be careful because it's kind of like starting a through hike or a marathon going at full speed. You're going to get tired too early.
Marie-Pier Tremblay [00:15:02]:
And what often happens with messy perfectionists, she says in the book, is that they're going to turn this quote unquote failure into a story about how they're bad in some way. They're going to believe that they're not persistent enough, that their ideas are not good enough, that no one takes them seriously and that kind of stuff. I always changed my mind of what's wrong with me. I thought I was really excited about that decision. Why do I feel differently so early in the game and get down on themselves? This type of person can accomplish epic things if they learn to focus their energy in one meaningful direction at a time and also practice doing the work even if they don't feel like it. So that's what I had to learn. When I through hiked. The Pct Pacific Crest Trail is I can get really far if I'm focused on one specific objective and if I keep hiking north, even on the days where I want to do everything but hike.
Marie-Pier Tremblay [00:16:15]:
Now that I've done that, I can apply this way of being to anything else. Just like in 2021, when I set the goal to make $100,000 in my business, I was focused on that one meaningful goal. And I practiced doing the work and showing up, even when I didn't feel like it, even when I was scared, even when I just wanted to hide. I showed up and I was determined. And I was committed and determined, which is a much more sustainable fuel determination and commitment. That's what I choose to fuel my car with now instead of enthusiasm and excitement. And that's what I work on with my clients as well. Now the last kind of perfectionist is intense perfectionists.
Marie-Pier Tremblay [00:17:11]:
Intense perfectionists have a strong need to achieve. They focus on the outcome. They want the outcome to be perfect. So whether it be the outcome of a project at work, for example, or maybe the kind of school that their kid is going to go to, or the photographs that they're going to take of their family at Christmas, or let's say they have a flight that they need to take, they want the experience to be perfect from A to Z. So getting to the airport on time, having everything they need in their bag when they sit in their seat, having easy access to everything, they're going to be very annoyed, for example, if they forgot something in their checked bag. So these people are very direct and transparent. They don't care about being liked. What they care about is efficiency, and they tend to project that onto others around them.
Marie-Pier Tremblay [00:18:19]:
It can be kind of exhausting for team members if they are managers or for children if they are a parent. They believe there's a certain way that things should be done and how the world should work. And it can seem similar to classic perfectionists. But the difference that she makes in the book is that classic perfectionists are this way with themselves, whereas intense perfectionists project it onto others as well. Now, the outcome of something is what defines their sense of success. It's the grade they got on the test that matters, not what they learned in the process. If they set a goal and they don't reach it, or they don't reach it in the timeline or in the manner that they had imagined, they see it as the whole thing as a failure. So if they wanted the gold medal but they get the silver one, they're going to be really angry.
Marie-Pier Tremblay [00:19:20]:
It's all or nothing thinking. And they might feel guilty about that because intellectually, they know when people tell them that they should be happy about getting the silver or about getting a B plus, but they're not. And the work that they have to do is to add some openness and vulnerability in their intensity, because when they do, they can become a very impressive leader and a driving force. So these are the five types of perfectionists. Obviously there's more information in the book, so if this catches your eye, just go get the book. It's the Perfectionist Guide to Losing Control by Katherine Morgan. Schaffler. And dig in.
Marie-Pier Tremblay [00:20:10]:
So we had the classic perfectionist, the Parisian perfectionist, the procrastinator, the messy perfectionist, and the intense perfectionist. Now, today we focused mainly on the challenging aspect of each type. But all of them have their strengths if they know how to channel them. And we need all kinds of people in the world to collaborate. For example, as a messy perfectionist, I need to surround myself with classic and intense perfectionists that have their feet on the ground and help me stay focused. And if you're a procrastinator perfectionist, you might benefit from being surrounded with messy perfectionists like me. I've had multiple clients who were procrastinator perfectionists who are afraid of getting started. Meanwhile, I'm over here having no issues with starting quite the opposite.
Marie-Pier Tremblay [00:21:08]:
And so my way of being helps them get into motion. I help them de dramatize the fear that comes with starting something new. So we nerds all five types. None of them are better or worse. It's just about getting to know yourself, learning to manage your flaws and to channel your gifts in a way that contributes to what you want to do in the kind of life that you want to live. So that's it for today. I hope this was helpful. Please don't use this as a way to beat yourself up and use this instead, just as just be curious, like, oh, yeah, I do do that.
Marie-Pier Tremblay [00:21:52]:
How interesting. How fascinating. Okay, and next week, I'm going to give you my top takeaways from the rest of the book and some solutions and ways you can celebrate your perfectionism instead of letting it slow you down. Okay, before we go, I want to remind you to book a call with me, if you're interested, to work together this fall. From September all the way to the end of the year, I have a few spots left. This is for two kinds of people. So either people who don't really know what they want to do next and they're feeling lost, they want to gain clarity, they want to start showing up more confidently in their life and start going after what lights them up or for people who are already doing what lights them up. But half heartedly, something or some mental blocks are getting in the way of them going all in.
Marie-Pier Tremblay [00:22:56]:
And you're tired of playing small. You want to be 100%. This is what we're going to work on this fall. I call this the audacity. I call my program The Audacity because this is going to be your most daring end of year so far, and I want to get you to a place by the time you reach 2024 where you're like, oh my God, I can't believe that I went after my dreams in such bold ways the last few months. Okay, so if that is what you need right now or what you think you might need, book a free call with me at selfgrowthnerds.com/audacity, and we'll get to know each other, see if we're a good fit and you'll have all the information to decide what to do from there. Okay, have a beautiful week, my friends, and I'll talk to you soon. Hey, if you love what you're hearing on the Self Growth Nerds podcast and you want individual help finding a new direction for your life and developing the courage to make your dreams a reality, you have to check out how we can work together on Selfgrowthnerds.com or message me on Instagram at self growth nerds.
Marie-Pier Tremblay [00:24:15]:
My clients say they would have needed that support years ago. So if you're tired of feeling like you're wasting your life, don't wait. Get in touch now. And I cannot wait to meet you.